Wednesday, August 30, 2023

Plato

 

Plato


Plato's political philosophy is a pivotal aspect of his broader philosophical work, deeply intertwined with his metaphysical, epistemological, and ethical theories. At the heart of Plato's political thought, as presented in works such as "The Republic," "The Statesman," and "Laws," are several key points:

  1. The Ideal State and the Philosopher-King: Plato envisioned an ideal state ruled by philosopher-kings. He argued that those who govern should not only possess the wisdom and knowledge necessary to make decisions for the common good but also embody virtue and a commitment to justice. The rulers, or guardian class, would be selected based on their intelligence, wisdom, and willingness to live a life of simplicity and communal service.


  2. The Tripartite Structure of Society: Plato's ideal state is structured around three classes: the ruling class (philosopher-kings), the auxiliaries (warriors who protect the state), and the producers (farmers, artisans, and merchants). This division reflects Plato's belief in a harmonious society where each class performs its designated role, guided by the rulers' wisdom.


  3. The Theory of Forms and the Good: Plato's political philosophy is underpinned by his Theory of Forms, which posits that abstract Forms (or Ideas) represent the most accurate reality. The Form of the Good is the highest of these Forms, and understanding it is essential for ruling justly. The philosopher-kings, with their grasp of the Forms, are thus uniquely positioned to govern wisely.


  4. Education and the Soul: Education plays a crucial role in Plato's ideal state, with a rigorous program designed to identify and train potential rulers from an early age. This educational system is not only intellectual but also moral and physical, aimed at developing virtuous, wise, and well-rounded individuals. Plato also presents a tripartite theory of the soul (rational, spirited, and appetitive), which mirrors the structure of his ideal state.


  5. Justice and the Individual: For Plato, justice in the state reflects justice in the individual. A just state arises when each class performs its role without interfering with the others, analogous to an individual's soul being just when each part (rational, spirited, appetitive) functions harmoniously under the guidance of reason.

  6. Critique of Democracy and Other Forms of Government: Plato was critical of democracy, which he saw as mob rule that could lead to the election of unfit leaders. His skepticism stemmed from the execution of Socrates, his mentor, by a democratic Athens. Plato also critiqued other forms of government, including oligarchy and tyranny, arguing that they fail to achieve justice and the common good.

Plato's political philosophy offers a vision of an idealized, rational, and just society, emphasizing the role of wisdom, education, and moral virtue in governance. While his ideas have been subject to criticism and deemed impractical by some, they continue to influence contemporary discussions on justice, governance, and the role of philosophy in public life.


According to Plato’s Republic, the human soul has three different elements, one consisting of raw appetites, another consisting of drives (such as anger and ambition), and a third consisting of thought or intellect. In the virtuous or just person, each of these three elements fulfills its own unique function and does so under the governance of reason. Likewise, according to Plato, in the ideal or just state there are also three elements, each of which fulfills its unique function and does so in accordance with the dictates of reason.

The lowest element in the soul—the appetitive element—corresponds in the well-ordered state to the class of craftsmen. The soul’s drive element corresponds in the state to the class of police-soldiers, who are auxiliaries to the governing class. This last class, in the well-ordered state, corresponds to the intellectual, rational element of the soul.

The governing class, according to Plato, comprises a select few highly educated and profoundly rational individuals, including women so qualified. An individual becomes a member of a class by birth, but he or she will move to a higher or lower class according to aptitude.

In the healthy state, said Plato, as in the well-ordered soul, the rational element is in control. Thus, for Plato, the ideal state is a class-structured aristocracy ruled by philosopher-kings.

Unlike the craftsmen, the ruling elite and their auxiliaries, who jointly are the guardians of society, have neither private property nor even private families: property, wives, and children are all possessions held in common. Reproduction among the guardians is arranged always to improve the bloodline of their posterity in intelligence, courage, and other qualities apt for leadership. The guardians not only must be trained appropriately for soldiering but also must be given a rigorous intellectual education that, for the few whose unique abilities allow it, prepares them for advanced work in mathematics and dialectic (that is, the Socratic method). These few, at age fifty and after many years of public service, advance to membership in the ruling aristocracy and to leadership of the state. Such was Plato’s vision of the ideal political structure.

It is important to be aware that, from Plato’s perspective, the state, like the person, is a living organism whose well-being must be sought by its subjects. Although he assumed that the healthy state is best for the individuals in it, Plato also believed that the health or well-being of the state is desirable for its own sake. And just as a person’s health or well-being requires the proper functioning and coordination of the elements of the soul under the overarching rule of reason, the state’s health or well-being lies in the proper functioning and coordination of its elements under the rule of the reasoning elite. The ideal state, according to Plato, is well ordered in this way, and its being well ordered in this way is something that is intrinsically desirable.

In Book VIII of the Republic, Plato identified five forms of government. The preferred form, of course, is an aristocracy, governed by rational philosopher- kings. According to Plato, however, even if this ideal state could be achieved, it would in time degenerate into a timocracy, in which the ruling class is motivated by love of honor rather than by love for the common good. A timocracy in turn gives way to a plutocracy, which is rule by men who primarily desire riches. Under a plutocracy, society becomes divided between two classes, the rich and the poor, Plato thought. Nevertheless, this form of government, Plato said, is preferable to the next degeneration, democracy, which results because “a society cannot hold wealth in honor and at the same time establish self-control in its citizens.” (Perhaps we will eventually see whether Plato is correct that a society that honors wealth cannot maintain self-control.) With Plato’s democracy, people’s impulses are unrestrained, and the result is lack of order and direction. “Mobocracy” is what we would call Plato’s “democracy” today. Tyranny, the last form of government in Plato’s classification, results when the democratic mob submits itself to a strongman, each person selfishly figuring to gain from the tyrant’s rule and believing that the tyrant will end democracy’s evil. In fact, Plato thought, the tyrant will acquire absolute power and enslave his subjects. Further, he, the tyrant, will himself become a slave to his wretched craving for power and self-indulgence. Plato was not always an optimist.

Crito : Plato

[In this dialogue, Plato portrayed “Socrates” in prison the day before his execution. Socrates’ friend Crito has come to help Socrates escape, but Socrates refuses. In this excerpt, Socrates explains why it is wrong for him to try to escape: because doing so would violate an implicit agreement with the state.]

Socrates: Then consider the matter in this way— imagine I am about to escape, and the Laws and the State come and interrogate me: “Tell us, Socrates,” they say, “what are you doing? Are you going to overturn us —the Laws and the State, as far as you are able? Do you imagine that a State can continue and not be overthrown, in which the decisions of Law have no power, but are set aside and overthrown by individuals?”

What will be our answer, Crito, to these and similar words? Anyone, and especially a clever orator, will have a good deal to say about the evil of setting aside the Law which requires a sentence to be carried out. We might reply, “Yes, but the State has injured us and given an unjust sentence.” Suppose I say that?

Crito: Very good, Socrates.

S: “And was that our agreement with you?” the Law would say, “Or were you to abide by the sentence of the State?” And if I were surprised at their saying this, the Law would probably add: “Answer, Socrates, instead of opening your eyes: you are in the habit of asking and answering questions. Tell us what complaint you have against us which justifies you in attempting to destroy us and the State? In the first place did we not bring you into existence? Your father married your mother by our aid and conceived you. Say whether you have any objection against those of us who regulate marriage?” None, I should reply. “Or against those of us who regulate the system of care and education of children in which you were trained? Were not the Laws, who have the charge of this, right in commanding your father to train you in the arts and exercise?” Yes, I should reply.

“Well then, since you were brought into the world, nurtured and educated by us, can you deny in the first place that you are our child and slave, as your fathers were before you? And if this is true you are not on equal terms with us. Nor can you think you have a right to do to us what we are doing to you. Would you have any right to strike or do any other evil to a father or to your master, if you had one, when you have been struck or received some other evil at his hands? And because we think it is right to destroy you, do you think that you have any right to destroy us in return, and your country so far as you are able? And will you, O expounder of virtue, say you are justified in this? Has a philosopher like you failed to discover your country is more to be valued and higher and holier by far than mother and father or any ancestor, and more regarded in the eyes of the gods and of men of understanding? It should be soothed and gently and reverently entreated when angry, even more than a father, and if not persuaded, it should be obeyed. And when we are punished by the State, whether with imprisonment or whipping, the punishment is to be endured in silence. If the State leads us to wounds or death in battle, we follow as is right; no one can yield or leave his rank, but whether in battle or in a court of law, or in any other place, he must do what his city and his country order him. Or, he must change their view of what is just. If he may do no violence to his father or mother, much less may he do violence to his country,” What answer shall we make to this, Crito? Do the Laws speak truly, or do they not?

C: I think that they do.

S: Then the Laws will say: “Consider, Socrates, if this is true, that in your present attempt you are going to do us wrong. For, after having brought you into the world, nurtured and educated you, and given you and every other citizen a share in every good we had to give, we further give the right to every Athenian, if he does not like us when he has come of age and has seen the ways of the city, he may go wherever else he pleases and take his goods with him. None of us Laws will forbid or interfere with him. Any of you who does not like us and the city, and who wants to go to a colony or to any other city, may go where he likes, and take his possessions with him. But he who has experience of the way we order justice and administer the State, and still remains, has entered into an implied contract to do as we command him. He who disobeys us is, as we maintain, triply wrong; first, because in disobeying us he is disobeying his parents; second, because we are the authors of his education; third, because he has made an agreement with us that he will duly obey our commands. He neither obeys them nor convinces us our commands are wrong. We do not rudely impose our commands but give each person the alternative of obeying or convincing us. That is

what we offer and he does neither. These are the sort of accusations to which, as we were saying, Socrates, you will be exposed if you do as you were intending; you, above all other Athenians.”

Suppose I ask, why is this? They will justly answer that I above all other men have acknowledged the agreement.

“There is clear proof,” they will say, “Socrates, that we and the city were not displeasing to you. Of all Athenians you have been the most constant resident in the city, which, as you never leave, you appear to love. You never went out of the city either to see the games, except once when you went to the Isthmus, or to any other place unless you were on military service; nor did you travel as other men do. Nor had you any curiosity to know other States or their Laws: Your affections did not go beyond us and our State; we were your special favorites and you agreed in our government of you. This is the State in which you conceived your children, which is a proof of your satisfaction. Moreover, you might, if you wished, have fixed the penalty at banishment in the course of the trial—the State which refuses to let you go now would have let you go then. You pretended you preferred death to exile and that you were not grieved at death. And now you have forgotten these fine sentiments and pay no respect to us, the Laws, whom you destroy. You are doing what only a miserable slave would do, running away and turning your back upon the agreements which you made as a citizen. First of all, answer this very question: Are we right in saying you agreed to be governed according to us in deed, and not in word only? Is that true or not?”

How shall we answer that, Crito? Must we not agree?

C: We must, Socrates.

S: Then will the Laws say: “You, Socrates, are breaking the agreements which you made with us at your leisure, not in any haste or under any compulsion or deception, but having had 70 years to think of them, during which time you were at liberty to leave the city, if we were not to your liking or if our covenants appeared to you to be unfair. You might have gone either to Lacedaemon or Crete, which you often

praise for their good government, or to some other Hellenic or foreign state. You, above all other Athenians, seemed to be so fond of the State and of us, her Laws, that you never left her. The lame, the blind, the maimed were not more stationary in the State than you were.

Now you run away and forsake your agreements. Not, Socrates, if you will take our advice; do not make yourself ridiculous by escaping out of the city.

“Just consider, if you do evil in this way, what good will you do either yourself or your friends? That your friends will be driven into exile and lose their citizenship, or will lose their property, is reasonably certain. You yourself, if you fly to one of the neighboring cities, like Thebes or Megara, both of which are well-governed cities, will come to them as an enemy, Socrates. Their government will be against you and all patriotic citizens will cast suspicious eye upon you as a destroyer of the Laws. You will confirm in the minds of the judges the justice of their own condemnation of you. For he who is a corruptor of the Laws is more than likely to be corruptor of the young. Will you then flee from well-ordered cities and virtuous men? Is existence worth having on these terms? Or will you go to these cities without shame and talk to them, Socrates? And what will you say to them? Will you say what you say here about virtue, justice, institutions, and laws being the best things among men. Would that be decent of you? Surely not.

“If you go away from well-governed states to Crito’s friends in Thessaly, where there is a great disorder and immorality, they will be charmed to have the tale of your escape from prison, set off with ludicrous particulars of the manner in which you were wrapped in a goatskin or some other disguise and metamorphosed as the fashion of runaways is — that is very likely. But will there be no one to remind you in your old age you violated the most sacred laws from a miserable desire of a little more life? Perhaps not, if you keep them in a good temper. But if they are angry you will hear many degrading things; you will live, but how? As the flatterer of all men and the servant of all men. And doing what? Eating

and drinking in Thessaly, having gone abroad in order that you may get a dinner. Where will your fine sentiments about justice and virtue be then? Say that you wish to live for the sake of your children, that you may bring them up and educate them—will you take them into Thessaly and deprive them of Athenian citizenship? Is that the benefit which you would confer upon them? Or are you under the impression that they will be better cared for and educated here if you are still alive, although absent from them because your friends will take care of them? Do you think if you are an inhabitant of Thessaly they will take care of them, and if you are an inhabitant of the other world they will not take care of them? No, if they who call themselves friends are truly friends, they surely will.

“Listen, then, Socrates, to us who have brought you up. Think not of life and children first, and of justice afterwards, but of justice first, that you may be justified before the rulers of the other world. For neither will you nor your children be happier or holier in this life, or happier in another, if you do as Crito bids. Now you depart in innocence, a sufferer and not a doer of evil; a victim, not of the Laws, but of men. But if you escape, returning evil for evil and injury for injury, breaking the agreements which you have made with us, and wronging those whom you ought least to wrong, that is to say, yourself, your friends, your country, and us, we shall be angry with you while you live. Our brethren, the Laws in the other world, will receive you as an enemy because they will know you have done your best to destroy us. Listen, then, to us and not to Crito.”

This is the voice which I seem to hear murmuring in my ears, like the sound of a divine flute in the ears of the mystic. That voice, I say, is humming in my ears and prevents me from hearing any other. I know anything more which you may say will be useless. Yet speak, if you have anything to say.

C: I have nothing to say, Socrates.

S: Then let me follow what seems to be the will of the god.


 Republic : Plato

[Here Plato, through “Socrates” (who is the first speaker), explained the relation between the male and the female guardians of society, as well as other features of

the ideal state.]

Socrates: . . . It looks as though our rulers will have to make considerable of falsehood and deception for the benefit of those they rule. And we heared that all such falsehoods are useful as a form of drug.

Glaucon: And we were right.

S: Well, it seems we were right, especially where marriages and the producing of children are concerned.

G: How so?

S: It follows from our previous agreements, first, that the best men must have sex with the best women as frequently as possible, while the opposite is true of the most inferior men and women, and, second, that if our herd is to be of the highest possible quality, the former’s offspring must be reared but not the latter’s. And this must all be brought about without being noticed by anyone except the rulers, so that our herd of guardians remains as free from dissension as possible.

G: That’s absolutely right.

S: Therefore certain festivals and sacrifices will be established by law at which we’ll bring the brides and grooms together, and we’ll direct our poets to compose appropriate hymns for the marriages that take place. We’ll leave the number of marriages for the rulers to decide, but their aim will be to keep the number of males as stable as they can, taking into account war, disease, and similar factors, so that the city will, as far as possible, become neither too big nor too small.

G: That’s right.

S: Then there’ll have to be some sophisticated lotteries introduced, so that at each marriage the inferior people we mentioned will blame luck rather than the rulers when they aren’t chosen.

G: There will.

S: And among other prizes and rewards the young men who are good in war or other things must be given permission to have sex with the women more often, since this will also be a good pretext for having them father as many of the children as possible.

G: That’s right.

S: And then, as the children are born, they’ll be taken over by the officials appointed for the purpose, who may be either men or women or both, since our offices are open to both sexes.

G: Yes.

S: I think they’ll take the children of good parents to the nurses in change of the rearing pen situated in a separate part of the city, but the children of inferior parents, or any child of the others that is born defective, they’ll hide in a secret and unknown place, as is appropriate.

G: It is, if indeed the guardian breed is to remain pure.

S: And won’t the nurses also see to it that the mothers are brought to the rearing pen when their breasts have milk, taking every precaution to insure that no mother knows her own child and providing wet nurses if the mother’s milk is insufficient? And won’t they take care that the mothers suckle the children for only a reasonable amount of time and that the care of sleepless

children and all other such troublesome duties are taken over by the wet nurses and other attendants?

G: You’re making it very easy for the wives of the guardians to have children.

S: And that’s only proper. So let’s take up the next thing we proposed. We said that the children’s parents should be in their prime.

G: True.

S: Do you share the view that a woman’s prime lasts about twenty years and a man’s about thirty?

G: Which years are those?

S: A woman is to bear children for the city from the age of twenty to the age of forty, a man from the time that he passes his peak as a runner until he reaches fifty-five. . . .

S: However, I think that when women and men have passed the age of having children, we’ll leave them free to have sex with whomever they wish, with these exceptions: For a man—his daughter, his mother, his daughter’s children, and his mother’s ancestors; for a woman—her son and his descendants, her father and his ancestors. Having received these instructions, they should be very careful not to let a single fetus see the light of day, but if one is conceived and forces its way to the light, they must deal with it in the knowledge that no nurture is available for it.

G: That’s certainly sensible. But how will they recognize their fathers and daughters and the others you mentioned?

S: They have no way of knowing. But a man will call all the children born in the tenth or seventh month after he became a bridegroom his sons, if they’re male, and his daughters, if they’re female, and they’ll call him father. He’ll call their children his grandchildren, and they’ll call the group to which he belongs grandfathers and grandmothers. And those who were born at the same time as their mothers and fathers were having children they’ll call their brothers and sisters. Thus, as we were saying, the relevant groups will avoid sexual relations with each other. But the law will allow brothers and sisters to have sex with one

another if the lottery works out that way and the Pythia1 approves.

G: That’s absolutely right.

S: This, then, Glaucon, is how the guardians of your city have their wives and children in common. We must now confirm that this arrangement is both consistent with the rest of the constitution and by far the best. Or how else are we to proceed?

G: In just that way.

S: Then isn’t the first step towards agreement to ask ourselves what we say is the greatest good in designing the city—the good at which the legislator aims in making the laws —and what is the greatest evil? And isn’t the next step to examine whether the system we’ve just described fits into the tracks of the good and not into those of the bad?

G: Absolutely.

S: Is there any greater evil we can mention for a city than that which tears it apart and makes it many instead of one? Or any greater good than that which binds it together and makes it one?

G: There isn’t.

S: And when, as far as possible, all the citizens rejoice and are pained by the same successes and failures, doesn’t this sharing of pleasures and pains bind the city together?

G: It most certainly does.

S: But when some suffer greatly, while others rejoice greatly, at the same things happening to the city or its people, doesn’t this privatization of pleasures and pains dissolve the city?

G: Of course.

S: And isn’t that what happens whenever such words as “mine” and “not mine” aren’t used in unison? And similarly with “someone else’s”?

G: Precisely.

S: Then, is the best-governed city the one in which most people say “mine” and “not mine” about the same things in the same way?

1 The priestess of Apollo at Delphi.

G: It is indeed. . . .

S: Therefore, in our city more than in any other, they’ll speak in unison the words we mentioned a moment ago. When any one of them is doing well or badly, they’ll say that “mine” is doing well or that “mine” is doing badly.

G: That’s absolutely true.

S: Now, didn’t we say that the having and expressing of this conviction is closely followed by the having of pleasures and pains in common?

G: Yes, and we were right.

S: Then won’t our citizens, more than any others, have the same thing in common, the one they call “mine”? And, having that in common, won’t they, more than any others, have common pleasures and pains?

G: Of course.

S: And, in addition to the other institutions, the cause of this is the having of wives and children in common by the guardians?

G: That more than anything else is the cause.

S: But we agreed that the having of pains and pleasures in common is the greatest good for a city, and we characterized a well-governed city in terms of the body’s reaction to pain or pleasure in any one of its parts.

G: And we were right to agree.

S: Then, the cause of the greatest good for our city has been shown to be the having of wives and children in common by the auxiliaries.

G: It has.

S: And, of course, this is consistent with what we said before, for we said somewhere that, if they’re going to be guardians, they mustn’t have private houses, property, or possessions, but must receive their upkeep from the other citizens as a wage for their guardianship and enjoy it in common.

G: That’s right.

S: Then isn’t it true, just as I claimed, that what we are saying now, taken together with what we said before, makes even better guardians out of them and prevents them from tearing the city

apart by not calling the same thing “mine”? If different people apply the term to different things, one would drag into his own house whatever he could separate from the others, and another would drag things into a different house to a different wife and children, and this would make for private pleasures and pains at private things. But our people, on the other hand, will think of the same things as their own, aim at the same goal, and, as far as possible, feel pleasure and pain in unison.

G: Precisely.

S: And what about lawsuits and mutual accusations? Won’t they pretty well disappear from among them, because they have everything in common except their own bodies? Hence they’ll be spared all the dissension that arises between people because of the possession of money, children, and families.

G: They’ll necessarily be spared it.

S: Nor could any lawsuits for insult or injury justly occur among them, for we’ll declare that it’s a fine and just thing for people to defend themselves against others of the same age, since this will compel them to stay in good physical shape.

G: That’s right. . . .

S: Then, in all cases, won’t the laws induce men to live at peace with one another?

G: Very much so.

S: And if there’s no discord among the guardians, there’s no danger that the rest of the city will break into civil war, either with them or among themselves.

G: Certainly not.

S: I hesitate to mention, since they’re so unseemly, the pettiest of the evils, the guardians would therefore escape: The poor man’s flattery of the rich, the perplexities and sufferings involved in bringing up children and in making the money necessary to feed the household, getting into debt, paying it off, and in some way or other providing enough money to hand over to their wives and household slaves to manage. All of the various troubles men endure in these matters are obvious, ignoble, and not worth discussing.

G: They’re obvious even to the blind.

S: They’ll be free of all these, and they’ll live a life more blessedly happy than that of the victors in the Olympian games.

G: How?

S: The Olympian victors are considered happy on account of only a small part of what is available to our guardians, for the guardians’ victory is even greater, and their upkeep from public funds more complete. The victory they gain is the preservation of the whole city, and the crown of victory that they and their children receive is their upkeep and all the necessities of life. They receive rewards from their own city while they live, and at their death they’re given a worthy burial.

G: Those are very good things.

S: Do you remember that, earlier in our discussion, someone—I forget who—shocked us by saying that we hadn’t made our guardians happy, that it was possible for them to have everything that belongs to the citizens, yet they had nothing? We said, I think, that if this happened to come up at some point, we’d look into it then, but that our concern at the time was to make our guardians true guardians and the city the happiest we could, rather than looking to any one group within it and molding it for happiness.

G: I remember.

S: Well, then, if the life of our auxiliaries is apparently much finer and better than that of Olympian victors, is there any need to compare it to the lives of cobblers, farmers, or other craftsmen?

G: Not in my opinion.

S: Then it’s surely right to repeat here what I said then: If a guardian seeks happiness in such a way that he’s no longer a guardian and isn’t satisfied with a life that’s moderate, stable, and—as we say—best, but a silly, adolescent idea of happiness seizes him and incites him to use his power to take everything in the city for himself, he’ll come to know the true wisdom of Hesiod’s2 saying that somehow “the half is worth more than the whole.”

2 Hesiod was an early Greek poet who is thought to have lived around 700 B.C.E.—Ed.

G: If he takes my advice, he’ll keep to his own lifestyle. . . .

S: Then doesn’t it remain for us to determine whether it’s possible to bring about this association among human beings, as it is among animals, and to say just how it might be done?

G: You took the words right out of my mouth.

S: As far as war is concerned, I think it’s clear how they will wage it.

G: How so?

S: Men and women will campaign together. They’ll take the sturdy children with them, so that, like the children of other craftsmen, they can see what they’ll have to do when they grow up. But in addition to observing, they can serve and assist in everything to do with the war and help their mothers and fathers. Haven’t you noticed in the other crafts how the children of potters, for example, assist and observe for a long time before actually making any pots?

G: I have indeed.

S: And should these craftsmen take more care in training their children by appropriate experience and observation than the guardians?

G: Of course not; that would be completely ridiculous.

S: Besides, every animal fights better in the presence of its young.

G: That’s so. But, Socrates, there’s a considerable danger that in a defeat—and such things are likely to happen in a war—they’ll lose their children’s lives as well as their own, making it impossible for the rest of the city to recover.

S: What you say is true. But do you think that the first thing we should provide for is the avoidance of all danger?

G: Not at all.

S: Well, then, if people will probably have to face some danger, shouldn’t it be the sort that will make them better if they come through it successfully?

G: Obviously.

S: And do you think that whether or not men who are going to be warriors observe warfare when they’re still boys makes such a small difference that it isn’t worth the danger of having them do it?

G: No, it does make a difference to what you’re talking about.

S: On the assumption, then, that the children are to be observers of war, if we can contrive some way to keep them secure, everything will be fine, won’t it?

G: Yes.

 


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